Balagangadhara
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Dr. S.N. Balagangadhara is director of the Research centre Vergelijkende Cultuurwetenschap (Comparative science of cultures) at Ghent University, Belgium. Balagangadhara argues that the classic view of cultural differences is the product of the social sciences, that is, this view originates in the way how Western culture has described the world and itself. Characteristic of the West's understanding of cultural differences is the assumption that all other cultures are constituted by religion or worldview, and that cultural differences are the expression of a difference of beliefs. He argues that this understanding is rooted in Christian theology, and that it is not a valid hypothesis for the scientific study of cultures. Ghent University (in Dutch, Universiteit Gent, abbreviated UGent) is one of the two large Flemish universities. ... The word culture comes from the Latin root colere (to inhabit, to cultivate, or to honor). ... The social sciences are a group of academic disciplines that study the human aspects of the world. ... This article needs to be cleaned up to conform to a higher standard of quality. ... A world view, also spelled as worldview is a term calqued from the German word Weltanschauung (look onto the world). The German word is also in wide use in English, as well as the translated form world outlook. ... Christian theology practices theology from a Christian viewpoint or studies Christianity theologically. ... For the scientific journal named Science, see Science (journal). ...
The Heathen in his Blindness
Contrary to the classic view of religious studies that recognises Western and Eastern religions, Balagangadhara offers a fundamental rethinking of the entity 'religion'. It could be said that Balagangadhara argues that there is a fundamental, paradigmatic difference between Abrahamic religion and non-Abrahamic entities, in the sense that the former generates a culture shaped by religion and the latter generates a culture shaped by ritual. Religious studies is the multi-disciplinary, secular study of religion. ... Religions, sects and denominations Note that the classification hereunder is only one of several possible. ... Since the late 1800s, the word paradigm (IPA: ) has referred to a thought pattern in any scientific discipline or other epistemological context. ... Abrahamic religions is a term used in the study of comparative religion to describe those religions deriving from a common ancient Semitic tradition and traced by their adherents to Abraham, a patriarch whose life is narrated in the Hebrew Bible, and who is also important in the New Testament, and... A ritual is a formalised, predetermined set of symbolic actions generally performed in a particular environment at a regular, recurring interval. ...
These are some of the theses he tries to account for in his book "The Heathen in his Blindness" (1994):
- Religion is an account of the Cosmos that claims to be handed over to mankind by the Creator of the Cosmos. It is an explanatory account of the Cosmos in the sense that it claims that the universe is caused by God. But religion is more than a causal explanation of the universe. It is an account that makes the universe intelligible, that is, religion makes the universe into the embodiment of Gods Will. The universe (including all events) is not only caused by God, it is also the purpose of God: things do not only happen because God caused them, but because Gods wants them to happen. Or, in other words, things do not just happen, they happen because they were intended to happen.
- Hence, to be religious requires more than the belief in God as the Creator of the universe, it requires faith in Gods Will as embodying the purpose of the universe.
- As an an explanatorily intelligible account of the universe religion turns the universe into such an entity. It inculcates the experience of the universe as embodying a particular kind of order. This order is hidden and consists of the fact that phenomena express a deep underlying constancy. This constancy is the Will of the Creator.
- When religion states that everything in the universe is the expression of Gods purpose, this also holds for itself. In other words, religion is what it says about the universe and about itself. For humans this poses the problem of circularity - what someone says about himself is not necessarily what he is - but not for religion. Indeed, religion is not part of human reasoning, but an expression of the Will of the Creator. Hence, when studying religion human beings can not accept religion's self-description, or they will be engaging in theology. This is precisely what has happened in the study of religion untill now: the study of religion(s) has been fundamentally shaped by the Christian religion's self-description. The language of religion - Christian theology - has become the language in which is spoken of all cultures, and their "religions": religion has become its own meta-language.
- As fundamentally requiring belief and faith, religion shapes our goings about in the world: it makes us see actions as expressions of belief. In this way, religion creates a specific way of going about in the world, and of learning to go about: religion generates a configuration of learning. It teaches (the need) to know before one acts: as creatures (of God) one can not just act, one needs to know about the world (or about Gods intentions with His Creation) before one can act. The underlying idea is that acts have to be coherent with what there is in the world - one has to be true to his faith, one has to enact the Word.
- As embodying the Will of the Creator religion must become universal. Hence, religion is destined to proselytize. However, religion must also secularize. To accomplish its mission for mankind religion must not only spread horizontally, but also 'vertically'. Religion needs to acquire a less abstract form, it has to secularize its religious way of going about in the world. In short, the univerzalisation of religion is propelled by both proselytization and secularization. Balagangadhara calls this the double dynamic of religion.
- Secularism is a typically Western, religious entity: it arose in the West in the context of rejection of the religious command that mortals should submit to Gods Wil. Moreover, secularism built extensively on the critiques of Catholic practice by the Protestant Reformation, and on the latter Protestant work ethic. True to the religious way of going about, Protestantism(s) accused Catholicism of having a false religious practice, that is, they were accused of having a practice that is not in accordance with true faith, i.e. with Gods Will as revealed in His Word. Protestantism(s) proceeded then to reform this false practice and proclaimed its/their own practice as the true Christian faith. Secularization then further de-Christianized Protestant faith and enabled religion to take another step towards universalization.
- Not having received the explanatorily intelligible account of the Cosmos from the Creator, whatever there exist in the east are not religions. Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism, though it is said they are religions, don't exist in India. They are products of Western academics and missionaries who took the religious account of the Cosmos for universal truth: as religion states that the whole universe is created by God, this implies that religion is a cultural universal. Yet, this reasoning is part of the account that is religion, and belongs exclusively to Abrahamic entities.
- Religion is an entity that is not proper to Asia. The Hindu, Buddhist and Jain way of going about in the world was not shaped by an explanatorily intelligible account of the Cosmos or by a religious configuration of learning, but by the description of the Cosmos as ritual, offers Balagangadhara.
- (Comparative) Religious studies can only have Abrahamic religions as their object of study: religious studies dealing with non-Abrahamic cultures are de facto theological. To break out of this theological trap, the study of different societies will have to be pursued from the viewpoint of culture, taking into account that some peoples' culture is shaped by the dynamic of religion, and other peoples' culture is not.
The cosmos is thought of as an orderly or harmonious system. ... The creator god is the divine being that created the universe, according to various traditions and faiths. ... A causal system is a system that depends only on the current and previous inputs. ... Purpose is deliberately thought-through goal-directedness. ... Look up belief in Wiktionary, the free dictionary. ... This article discusses faith in a religious context. ... Metalanguage can refer to: An intermediate step in the compilation/assembly/interpreting process. ... The English language word proselytism is derived ultimately from the Greek language prefix pros (towards) and the verb erchomai (to come). ... Secularization is a contentious term because the concept of secularization can be confused with secularism, a philosophical and political movement that promotes the idea that society benefits by being less religious, whereas the opposing view is that the values and beliefs implicit in religions support a more moral and, therefore... The English language word proselytism is derived ultimately from the Greek language prefix pros (towards) and the verb erchomai (to come). ... Secularization is a contentious term because the concept of secularization can be confused with secularism, a philosophical and political movement that promotes the idea that society benefits by being less religious, whereas the opposing view is that the values and beliefs implicit in religions support a more moral and, therefore... // Definition Secularism means: in philosophy, the belief that life can be best lived by applying ethics, and the universe best understood, by processes of reasoning, without reference to a god or gods or other supernatural concepts. ... // History and origins Roots and precursors 14th Century and 15th Century Anti-hierarchical movements: Catharism, Waldensianism, and others Avignon Papacy (Babylonian Captivity of the Church), Avignon, Great Schism Jan Hus, John Wycliffe, William Tyndale Northern Renaissance Unrest in the Western Church and Empire culminated in the Avignon Papacy (1308 - 1378... The Protestant work ethic — also known as the Puritan work ethic — is a biblically based teaching on the necessity of hard work, perfection and the goodness of labor. ... This article considers Catholicism in the broadest ecclesiastical sense. ... Hinduism (सनातन धर�म; also known as San�tana Dharma, and Vaidika-Dharma) is a worldwide religious tradition that is based on teachings of the Veda scriptures. ... A replica of an ancient statue found among the ruins of a temple at Sarnath Buddhism is a religion and philosophy based on the teachings of the Buddha, Siddh�rtha Gautama, a prince of the Shakyas, whose lifetime is traditionally given as 566 to 486 BCE. Buddhism gradually spread from... This article needs to be cleaned up to conform to a higher standard of quality. ... An Abrahamic religion (also referred to as desert monotheism) is any religion derived from an ancient Semitic tradition attributed to Abraham, a great patriarch described in the Torah, the Bible and the Quran. ... World map showing location of Asia Asia is the central and eastern part of Eurasia, defined by subtracting Europe from Eurasia. ... A ritual is a formalised, predetermined set of symbolic actions generally performed in a particular environment at a regular, recurring interval. ... Religious studies is the multi-disciplinary, secular study of religion. ... An Abrahamic religion (also referred to as desert monotheism) is any religion derived from an ancient Semitic tradition attributed to Abraham, a great patriarch described in the Torah, the Bible and the Quran. ...
References
- S.N. Balagangadhara "The Heathen in his Blindness...". Asia, the West and the Dynamic of Religion., Manohar Books (2nd edition), New Delhi, 2005. ISBN 8-17-304608-5
- Cultural Dynamics: Symposium Volume S.N. Balagangadhara, "The Heathen in his Blindness..." : Asia, The West and the Dynamic of Religion. Sage Publications (London, Thousand Oaks, CA and New Delhi), 8/2 (1996). ISSN 0921-3740 (contributions by Vivek Dhareshwar, Philip C. Almond, David Loy, David A. Pailin, Henry Rosemont Jr., Narahari Rao)
- Will Sweetman "Hinduism" and the history of "religion": Protestant presuppositions in the critique of the concept of Hinduism', Method & Theory in the Study of Religion, 15/4 (2003); 'Unity and Plurality: Hinduism and the Religions of India in Early European Scholarship', Religion, 31/3 (2001); The prehistory of Orientalism: colonialism and the textual basis for Bartholomäus Ziegenbalg's account of Hinduism', New Zealand Journal of Asian Studies 6/2 (2004).
- Brian K. Pennington "Was Hinduism invented?" Britons, Indians and the Colonial Construction of Religion. Oxford University Press, Oxford, New York, 2005. ISBN 0-19-516655-8
- Jakob De Roover An Unhappy Lover of Theology: Feuerbach and Contemporary Religious Studies, Journal of the American Academy of Religion, 71/3 (2003)
- Vincent Geoghegan (Queen's University, Belfast, Ireland) Utopia and the Memory of Religion
See also
Religious studies divides the world into Western and Eastern religions // Western religions Western religions are based on Abrahamic monotheism and derive from the Middle Eastern milieu, including: Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and the Baháà Faith. ... Religious studies is the multi-disciplinary, secular study of religion. ... The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism is a book written by Maximilian Weber, a German economist and sociologist in 1904 and 1905 that began as a series of essays. ... Secularization is a contentious term because the concept of secularization can be confused with secularism, a philosophical and political movement that promotes the idea that society benefits by being less religious, whereas the opposing view is that the values and beliefs implicit in religions support a more moral and, therefore... // Definition Secularism means: in philosophy, the belief that life can be best lived by applying ethics, and the universe best understood, by processes of reasoning, without reference to a god or gods or other supernatural concepts. ... Post-colonialism (also known as post-colonial theory, or post-oriental theory) refers to a set of theories in continental philosophy and literature that grapple with the legacy of 19th century British and French colonial rule. ...
External links
- S.N. Balagangadhara "On Colonial Experience and the Indian Renaissance"
- Research centre Vergelijkende Cultuurwetenschap (Comparative science of cultures)
” Children will become cultureless by mixing with Dalit kids who are also labeled as “unhygienic and less cultured ” what a shame on liberal thinking upper caste people !!
Closing the eyes on facing the problem and roam in sphere of philosophy and idealism is old habit of Hinduism. This denial of supression of people on the basis of their caste and alienating themselves as highly cultured is problem persisting with educated class also. The fight for equality is not removed by current education only as our thinking patterns in education system doesn’t make us capable for social acceptance and recognization all men as equal.
Its very painful to hear all these things still going on blatantly in India.
Many a times a question arises in my mind : WHY IS DALIT SUPPOSED TO BE AN UNTOUCHABLE?
Or what is it that makes a human being an untouchable while an upper caste would freely come in contact with scavenging animals even! I think, if some of the dalit leaders could seek answers to these questions, there is a probability that we would find upper caste people fumbling and red faced.
I have watched all four parts of documentary of Twinkle Twinkle Little Caste. I will classify it into two parts for the purpose of understanding documentary on dropouts of upper caste children from the Dalit nursery. One is the opinions of an educated Dalit activist, a teacher and a writer (They might or might not be Dalits). Another is opinions of a teacher and the members of Panchayat (They might or might not be upper castes). The both parties talk about the causes of dropouts of upper caste children from Dalit nursery as caste system. The former wants to accuse the upper castes and caste system for all facts like dropouts. And the latter wants to escape from that kind of accusations. But this documentary does not contain the opinions of the concerned parents and public (apart from above mentioned people) about the causes for dropouts of upper caste children from the Dalit nursery. To find the particular causes for the dropout, it needs further information that statistics for strength of children before and now, the numbers of dropouts from upper castes and from the Dalits and the opinions of parents about the relationship of children and teacher. If it contains opinions of all, then it would help in finding out what is the cause for dropout of upper caste children.
Regarding above issue I have the following questions;
1. If the caste system is the cause for dropout of upper caste children, then why in the first place should the upper caste people enroll their children to this nursery Anganavadi, even though they knew that this Anganavadi belongs to Dalits? Why did not caste system work then?
2. What happened in between the admission and dropping out of upper caste children?
3. Is there any statistics of dropouts? Do they include Dalit children?
4. Is there any information from education department about the minimum strength of Anganavadi?
Same story different country. Whites prefer white only private shcools in UK.
http://www.civilrightsproject.ucla.edu/research/reseg03/resegregation03.php
Shankarappa has pointed at the complexities involved in the issue.. especially in the case of covert caste discrimination or practice of untouchabilty as seen in places like kerala.. an empirical account may satisfy shankarappa if some more bites were added or garnish the write up with some data.. but my question is can data alone address/solve the issue? or is it an empirical issue alone?
moreover, it is quite interesting to note that the demand for data comes from those who proclaim to be “theoreticians” and “philosophers”.. and who denounce Others as “empirial”..
the issue cannot be addressed by mere data alone. and it may not provide sufficient ground to understnd the issue..
what we lack is the understanding of a perspective only with which one could understnd the issue..call it intuitive..and theory cannot exist without any intuition.. and i think this is beyond mere data..
it also points at the need for a nuanced understanding of castes in modern contexts..
some random thoughts only.. hope some one could elaborate..
Ranju,
My thoughts exactly, how the demand for data comes to us….. hilarious, we with our history of data being withheld, distorted, misconstrued by the upper caste forever ughhhh! but when we point out -with images, they get all theoritical and statistical -Does Mr S. have an issue with the point where the director contrasts the panchayat members claim that money is used to develop the colonies and the camera zooms to the wonderful crumbling ramshackles -that pass for human dwellings? Then i am sure we will get advice to get our eyes tested. The teacher is biased? she happens to be assertive and analytical, one need not be a dalit to point out injustices, illogical behaviour and bigotry.
@Shankarappa
I like your questions. It indicates that you do not think discrimination towards dalit is a possibility. I wish it was that perfect.
I have few questions –
1. It is very clear panchayat will defend it but why are aganvadi teachers raising that issue?
2. I think between admission and dropping out of upper caste children aganvadi got labeled as SC aganvadi. Is that a possibility?
3. If upper caste start dropping out as they are getting culturally corrupt studying in school where majority is dalit. Should dalit children also drop out and move to other upper caste majority school to become cultural or less culturally corrupt?
4. I do not understand relevance of minimum strength in class in this context. I hope you are not thinking that children moved to other school because strength was high. Will teachers complain if it was true?
We are not fighting court case here and no one will fined or punished if found guilty. We should ask these questions to ourselves and let our conscience be the judge.
In India hundreds of such cases happen every day. There is need for more such documentaries and media should bring up more such issues.
First of all I have to say that I do not deny any facts of documentary and do not say there is no discrimination either. Of course there are dropouts of upper caste children, but without concerned sources and a good explanation how could one agree the causes of any fact?
Yes agree with Ranju that the data may not provide sufficient ground for any fact like ‘dropouts’ and it can not be addressed mere alone without any descriptions or/and theory or theories and theory cannot exist without any intuition. Of course that is true but what kind of ‘intuitions’ do we have to explanation or/and theories of ‘dropout’ of upper caste children from Dalit nursery? We (Dalits) are inferior, lower caste, suppressed by ‘Brahmanism’ in name Hindu religion and so on. Are these our ‘intuitions? What kinds of influences were got on theories of caste system as well as theories of Untouchables/Dalits or our ‘intuitions’?
Come to Anu part, why do we think like that ‘I am sure we will get advice to get our eyes tested’ with full of emotion. Of course one must discuss the Development programs of government and situations of Dalits and their colony. This issue requires different kind of discussions. If someone raises this issue on different banner, we’ll have discussion latter.
If someone focuses on my first question with ‘intuitions’ of Dalits and raise some questions there, then discussion could be helpful to find what we Dalits are in general and causes of ‘dropouts of upper caste children in particular.
Shankarappa,
About emotion: The one thing I do with relish when it comes to dalit issues, is get personal/emotional because i cannot escape that nor do i want to, i am not interested in being an objective observer. Who decides how one has to confront dalit development issues? In other words I do not subscribe to any dictates of how this has to happen (rational thought-fights -violent reclamation, everything goes for me). I choose my own language and form of address.
This is my struggle with what Ranju calls ‘debrahmanization’ -to get out of thinking from the mould that was set for me by someone else/mainstream. I try to think from within. T
I think i can see where you are going with the intuitions part,
>>but what kind of ‘intuitions’ do we have to explanation or/and theories of ‘dropout’ of upper caste children from Dalit nursery? We (Dalits) are inferior, lower caste, suppressed by ‘Brahmanism’ in name Hindu religion and so on. Are these our ‘intuitions? What kinds of influences were got on theories of caste system as well as theories of Untouchables/Dalits or our ‘intuitions’?
No, we dalits have started to assert and use the resources and suddenly the leveling platform of a school, anganvadi is place where they are unable to continue feeling superior and find the need to assert it by walking away from it.
When i first saw the documentary, it sharply reminded me of a dear friend from kerala, who was agonizing about her aged parents in Kerala who were facing a situation of rubber estate laborers not coming to work “even’ though it was about 2000 rupees/m and went on to say, that the english school education system has given them opportunities and the next generation of laborers were being taken away from the traditional jobs. ” now their kids and my sisters kids go in the same bus to the same school’ such a thing could not have been imagined before. All this with dead earnestness, from a scholar specializing in development economics of third world from a premier western university!!! Some intuition there! I would like to wonder about their intuitions for a change, has education or anything else effected their intuitions, emotions or notions of justice?
interesting conversation here….
@shankarappa
“We (Dalits) are inferior, lower caste, suppressed by ‘Brahmanism’ in name Hindu religion and so on. Are these our ‘intuitions?”
this is perhaps ur intuition.. by and large, the intuition of those who would not want their kids to study along with Dalit studnts.. We DALITS do not possess this kind of intuition..
we still live in brahminical caste system is the simplest lived reality evry common indian intuitively understands.. no need to go mull over complex theories to get ths simple fact and data ..
the wonderful thing abt this docu is that it could bring forth new and nuanced modern forms of the practice of castes and untouchability… that too from the model state of kerala..
@anu
u r right.. there r so many ways to do it.. emancipations need not come from one method only.. there are and should be multiple methods possible..
i was just openly sharing what i think and try to prctice at this hitorical/cultural juncture… people can reject it; ignore it; modify it and if they think it is fine they can also adapt or adopt it… but again this need not be an end… ruptures will again happen and that is how perhaps it moves on and on..
thanks
I do not suggest that you should don’t be emotional; rather we have to think what made us to being emotional like we are suppressed, exploited and depressed by ‘brahmanism’ or upper castes. My study says descriptions and theories of Hindu religion, caste system and untouchables, made us being emotion like this. (Please don’t take it as Anu’s personal issue; I look at Anu as a Dalit and his/her way of thinking about society)
If we are not objective observer and thinker, how can one explain about what Is Brahmanism? If someone explains what ‘brahmanism’ is ‘empirically’, then we may think about ‘debranhmanization’.
If we do not have what I mentioned intuitions why does one claim superiority and go away from ‘traditional jobs of Dalit, if we are not inferior?
I focus on ‘Dalits intuitions’ not others. If come to others intuition please specify the causes of their ‘intuitions’.
Shankarappa,
I have emotions because I am human, it is not a mental state to be worried about if you get what i mean
now if you want to categorize them as negative or positive, let me say this, my stepping out of dominant thinking that reasoning carries meaning only when we are objective is what i am studying with my own responses. They have little do with inferior, suppressed, exploited or depressed, they are simply expressions. Weighing expressions and categorizing a diverse humans such as dalits as inferior etc is pardon me….. bullshit… that i do not care much for.
* So, i cannot have a conversation about this with someone who thinks in the dominant mode.
Please have a look at the documentary again every time the conversation went to upper castes, they spoke with the air of either not knowing that the film will have the other side of the story that viewers will be interpreting visually as well as linguistically, or with the confidence that if they said it the truth of images and words can be misconstrued to suit their version of the truth = Hence they will ask us to get our eyes tested.
For all other repetitions in your comment, please see asterisk, thank you. I do appreciate your attempts at educating dalits about their various states of mind.
“if we do not have what I mentioned intuitions why does one claim superiority and go away from ‘traditional jobs of Dalit, if we are not inferior?”
the problem is with those who think superior and go away.. let us “uplift” and “civilise” them !
Dear shankarappa..
I found your observation quite interesting…would be very happy if you can please elaborate on few points..
1) >> ” I look at Anu as a Dalit and his/her way of thinking about society…”
how does it make a difference from perspective of observation..??
Does it suggest that a dalit find it challanging to be a “objective observer” in such cases…??
2)>> “If we are not objective observer and thinker, how can one explain about what Is Brahmanism? If someone explains what ‘brahmanism’ is ‘empirically’, then we may think about ‘debranhmanization’..”
3)>> “If we do not have what I mentioned intuitions why does one claim superiority and go away from ‘traditional jobs of Dalit, if we are not inferior? ”
i find it a bit a difficult to understand completely, point no 2&3….. would be very happy,if you can please elaborate on the same…
Regards,
PSB
I have to say once again that I didn’t say there are no dropouts of upper castes children and I agree with that majority of the Dalit people are poor, they live in miserable condition. In this context let me ask one question that what causes for the ‘dropouts’ of the upper caste children and Dalit’s poverty and their miserable life are?
This question is taken following answers or causes, which are given by past two centuries studies;
Varna system, Caste system, Hinduism and its Shastras, priesthood and some thinker combine all these entities and called it as ‘Brahmanism’.
If that is case look at following two quotations:
“Militant anti-caste leaders such as Phule and Ambedkar, both of who had Brahman colleagues, were quite rigorous about the condition of their acceptance: for Phule, the Arya-bhats could be welcomed as long as they “threw away their bogus scriptures”; for Ambedkar, Hinduism could be saved if all the “Smrutis and Shastras” were given up”. (Gail Omvedt. 1995(2008). Dalit Visions: The anti-caste movement and the construction of an Indian identity. New Delhi: Orient Longman. p. 95.) With help of this quotation I say that which group controlled the society with directions of Shastras and Smrutis called “Brahmanism”.
If that is the ‘Brahmanism’ looks at another quotation;
that “Hindu or Hindustan not at all figure in the Sanskrit “sacred scriptures” of Hindus. These scriptures do not even give a name to this religion. It has no founder. It has no single god. It has neither a church nor one single text like the Bible or Quran”. (http://www.dalitvoice.org/book.htm) This quotation says that no Hindu term as a religion in any Sankrit Scripture (this was a geographical term used by Arabs), no church (church means organization or group).
If there is no Hindu religion entity likes Christianity and no particular ‘brahmanical group like church (temple is not equal to church), then which group come under as mediator or exploitative group (the claim of protestant) of ‘Hinduism’ between God and people like priesthood or church.
From these two quotations I would like to say that there is no ‘priesthood’ or ‘Brahmanism’ entity at all. If some one gives better explanation than above my explanation, then I would kindly accept that.
Thanking you all
Shankarappa N.S.
U r absolutely right shankarappa.. there s no such thing exists at all.
thank u very much for enlightening us about it
and if u can tell the same thing to those sits in varanasi and utter such nonsenses such as brahminical preachings, and the same idtiotic deeds of those shankaracharyans and all, the whole nations will be indebted to u..
u will be saving a entire generation of idiotic brahminical people
we r really thnkful to u
best
somebody please check ip address and stuff like that, there is an interesting, rather pathetic pattern here, of course after you moderator types are done laughing
rather i feel its a conspiracy from the moderaters.. themself..to keep all u ppl busy..
Mr. Ranju tells me in previous comment that ‘this is perhaps your intuitions (We (Dalits) are inferior, lower caste, suppressed by ‘Brahmanism’ in the name Hindu religion and so on), by and large, the intuition of those who would not want their kids to study along with Dalit students. We DALITS do not possess this kind of intuitions’. Here Mr. Ranju is right. Let me tell how, take for a instance, I went to a field work for my research, in that field work I met two men, one was from upper caste and another from Dalit caste (Madiga, I am a Madiga). The upper caste man claims that because of the beef eating, lack of hygiene and sandals making (cobbler) Dalits are impure and low caste and the man, who belongs to Dalit also accept that. After interaction with both I was thinking myself that, if beef eating is cause for Untouchability or low caste, then why do upper castes people allow the Christians and the Muslims to their house and why don’t practice Untouchability between them even though they have beef? Even though Dalits maintain their hygiene than other caste, why don’t allow the Dalits to house/temple of upper castes. If sandals making is the cause for Untouchability/low caste, then why does a Dalit do the puja (worship) to the tools and sandals and making the sandals, even though consider sandal and the tools of making them are impure by upper caste? From result of this field work, Mr. Ranju’s comment and in this context I will have concluded that Dalits are not inferior and lower caste.
But come to the theories of ‘Brahmanical caste system’, they say that ‘the causes for the Untouchability are low graded occupations of Dalits, their lack of hygiene and beef eating. In this context let me ask some questions, like, why did the intellectuals/thinkers construct these theories, even though these theories do not represent the Dalit people? These kinds of theories were constructed by whom and when (go to colonial period)? Why the upper castes people accept these? What are the consequences of these theories?
Come to Priesthood/Brahmanism. If those causes do not represent the Dalit people and considering the criteria of untouchables to identify them, what are the links between the Dalits and the Brahman priests or any priests and Dalit atrocities and thse priests?
The criteria for identify the untouchables were:
1. Deny the supremacy of the Brahmins.
2. Do not receive the Mantra from a Brahmin or recognized Hindu Guru.
3. Deny the authority of Vedas do not warship the Hindu gods. and
4. Have no Brahmin priest at all.
(I have mentioned here, some required criteria only for the context)
(Book; Valerian Rodrigues. The Essential Writings of B.R. Ambedkar. New Delhi: Oxford University. p.398)
From above explanation, I will construct a hypothesis that theories of ‘brahmanical caste system and untouchable prevent us to identify the so called Dalits and find considerable causes of their miserable condition. (it might be true or might not be true)
Mr. Shankarappa,
I feel sorry for your state of mind,still would like to thanks for your effort to write your thoughts..
Initially,i felt not to write anything,as idea of wasting my time scares me… as i value my tiime very much..
but still, i thought i should remind u a few things..
1)Your knowledge of the subject is mediocre…irrespective of wether u are a dalit or not..its more like in the discussion on algebra of 12th standard,some 5th standard guy comes and start participating and arguing ,while claiming to be a graduate
2)The very fact,that you are twisting the historical fact, makes your motive very clear to me..
3)That you are trying to hide your real identity by projecting yourself as dalit(madiga).. repels me to any further discussion with you..
and if you are in reallity a dalit, then i feel shame on you …People like you are same on dalit community…being a dalit you should be aware of your history and the reasons for such a pathetic condition of your community
For that you should have relied more on authentic works of Ambedkar,rather than relying on any tom,dick and harry’s version of writting on ambedkar…for me this is unpardonable act..
for you misirable state of mind, my sincere advice is please go throgh the link and spend some time reading… http://www.ambedkar.org/ambcd/39A.Untouchables%20who%20were%20they_why%20they%20became%20PART%20I.htm
and if you have enough intelligence to figure it out all writtings of ambedkar are on this website..
Now coming to the fact,i would like to inform you,the process through which, untouchables were identified and counted seperately from the rest,was based on five(all) observation as follows..
(1) Do not receive the Mantra from a Brahmin or other recognized Hindu Guru.
(2) Are not served by good Brahmins as family priests.
(3) Have no Brahmin priests at all.
(4) Are denied access to the interior of the Hindu temples.
(5) Eat beef and do no reverence to the cow.
and not as you have put up…
and finally thanks for wasting your time and in the process my time also..
what i can deduce from this is that identity is a complex issue and any attempt to essentialise (though without even little bit of essentialism no identity can exist) and make it a stagnant reference point would be suicidal. the conflation of identities operating in a bizarre way is the wonderful thing about identity..
so thank u very much for sharing ur field research experience Shankarappaji.. i value and respect ur views. probably this is another way of looking at the world
thanks
@PSB
Yes you’re right, now I am first standard student and I am started thinking about my history with and without influences of caste system and untouchables’ theories. At the same time with help of my caste stories and its practice and life.
First let me ask a question myself that ‘what is my history?’ In this context I would like to share my own experience. On the one side, when my mother, grandmother and my caste people were telling stories to me about ‘Jambava’, ‘Harallaiah’ and ‘Deity’ of my caste, I feel proud of these stories and their heroes. Meanwhile I was proud about when our caste’ rituals were taking place. On the other side when I was/is reading the theories of caste system and untouchables and who were got influenced by these kinds theories that the other castes people (I dyne to call them as upper castes) were/are started to tease me in the name of my caste, I was started to get furies, shame on our own society (called it Hindu society as well as miserable condition of my caste) and hate redness on it and I was very furious and thought to kill them.
Of course both are belong to my histories. But since when these theories were/are started to claiming that untouchables were/are like this or that. ‘What you are mentioned criteria for segregate the untouchables from other castes, constructed by whom? What were/are the influences on them?
In this position I give options to you for evaluating my history, please evaluating which my history, whether the former or the latter?
Reading lots of Tom,Dick and harry’s books , envolves wastage of huge amount of time and results in corruption of mind and soul.
This type of state of mind, is severe and tragidic and requires immediate attention. This state of mind results in loss of thinking power of the individual and makes him incapable of putting up his thoughts and ideas in a coherent,rational and logical manner.
Dr. Ambedkar has always insisted and asked his followers and childrens to give the top priority to develop their mind so as to empower them to think,behave and act in a rational and logical manner, without which they will find it very challenging to grow and develop themselves.
However to come out of above stated ,” state of mind” is not easy . It requires a “SELF-THEREPY” along with sufficient amount of determination,self-honesty and hard work.
Those inflicted with above mentioned desease, needs to start reading,following books of Dr. Ambedkar…
1) Revolution and Counter-Revolution in Ancient India
http://www.ambedkar.org/ambcd/19A.Revolution%20and%20Counter%20Rev.in%20Ancient%20India%20PART%20I.htm
http://www.ambedkar.org/ambcd/19B.Revolution%20and%20Counter%20Rev.in%20Ancient%20India%20PART%20II.htm
2) UNTOUCHABLES -WHO WERE THEY AND WHY THEY BECAME UNTOUCHABLES ?
http://www.ambedkar.org/ambcd/39A.Untouchables%20who%20were%20they_why%20they%20became%20PART%20I.htm
http://www.ambedkar.org/ambcd/39B.Untouchables%20who%20were%20they_why%20they%20became%20PART%20II.htm
3) Untouchables or The Children of India’s Ghetto
http://www.ambedkar.org/ambcd/22A.Untouchables%20or%20the%20children%20of%20India’s%20Ghetto%20PART%20I.htm
The books mentioned above needs to be read and UNDERSTOOD in the sequence mentioned.
After reading and understanding the subjects discussed in these books,one needs to meditate over the subject.Such meditation,if performed sincerely is likely to throw many questions in mind.
Go back..and repeat the process again…
This process may take a few weeks, of investment of time, but this investment of time,will prove to be investment of life-time, specially for IGNORANT DALITS.
“He that WILL NOT reason is a bigot ,He that CANNOT reason is a fool ,He that DARE NOT reason is a slave ”
PS-This forum is not run by some Nawabs/Corporates for entertainment/time-pass for some individuals.But by/and for Students and professional,who take their valuable time,out of their career and use it to discuss/address the the issues/feelings of each-other and their not so privileged fraternity of dalit-adivasi-bahujans, and not to waste their valuable time for ignorant dalits(or others(Cowards) who try to wear the mask of dalit and try to portray themselves as dalit).
At this point, I stop to give any explanation further, because unless giving suggestions no one gives counter explanation to my explanation. No one thinks about what I am going to think myself about descriptions of India as well as untouchables by westerns and through their cultural background. Latter Indian thinkers accepted their descriptions with positive or negative of Indian society. Of course those descriptions apply to us, when we do have Hinduism as religion and its priesthood like Christianity and its priesthood of before 16th century. Just let me think about, is Hinduism play role like religion and do Brahmans only priests of all Indian castes to control the society?
It is disquieting to note how this discussion is developing. Shankarappa has raised some fundamental questions in a reasonable manner: (1) How could one establish a causal link between the fact that certain “upper caste children” drop out from a nursery, on the one hand, and the structures of the caste system and Hinduism, on the other? (2) Assuming that the caste system is the cause, how come the “upper caste parents” enrolled their children in the Anganavadi nursery in the first place, even though they knew that Anganavadi belonged to SC? Furthermore, he asks for basic empirical data.
1. What do we get in response? “The issue cannot be addressed by mere data alone.” Right, that is the point Shankarappa is making: the classical account about “the caste system” is theoretically very poor and the causal links that are postulated between all kinds of facts in Indian society and this “caste system” are underexamined and undertheorized. “Intuition” may play a role in developing the type of theories on jati that we need, but one cannot defend the cognitive value of an explanation of Indian society in terms of one’s personal intuitions. This would be like defending Hitler’s anti-semitic theory, because “it corresponds to one’s intuition.”
2. Another comment says that Shankarappa’s reasoning indicates that he does not consider discrimination of dalits to be a possibility. I do not see how this is in any way the implication of what he writes. What he questions is that the notion of “the caste system” provides any kind of cogent explanation of the facts of discrimination between jati’s in India.
3. Next, Anu defends an emotional response, because: “This is my struggle with what Ranju calls ‘debrahmanization’ -to get out of thinking from the mould that was set for me by someone else/mainstream. I try to think from within.” Again, Shankarappa raises a fundamental issue: if one wants to think independently, it is a minimal requirement that one should have a minimally viable theory on “Brahminism” and “de-brahminization”. Instead, the only account we have today about “Brahminism” is one that was developed by European Orientalists in the nineteenth century to explain what they considered to be the false religion of the Brahmin priests. So, this account of Brahminism and the caste system certainly reproduces “the mould that was set for you by someone else,” namely, nineteenth century European-Christian thinkers.
4. The fact that Shankarappa dares to question the existence of this entity called “Brahminism” immediately leads to rhetoric, such as pointing out that some people in Varanasi are engaging in certain practices. Of course, the question is: how does the so-called “Brahminism” provide a valid description and explanation of what these people in Varanasi are doing?
5. Then the real rhetoric follows: basically, the rest of the posts are ad hominem attacks without any argument at all. Now, what this appears to show is that one is not allowed to raise certain kinds of questions here, without being scolded and ridiculed. Instead of responding to these questions with reasonable arguments, one feels compelled to take recourse to calling someone ‘ignorant’, ‘corrupted’, a ‘coward’, dishonest, etc.
Could someone please explain to me how to make sense of this development of the discussion? Because to me it seems to indicate precisely the type of dogmatic slavery that others disavow here.
Yours,
Jakob
Mr Jakob,
Hello and welcome, regarding my response, please do not attach words like ‘defend’ etc. that was my statement in response.
You have keenly observed this dialog, thank you. Can you please go back to Mr.S’s initial request for more data as he felt there was lack of data in the movie? Then move to his own ‘field research’ of TWO people’s confidences with which he proposes hypotheses galore, not backed by a reference or any such things as the documentary provides : such as there is a place, people, two sides presented in the documentary all of which came under doubt, but Mr. S’s gibberish laden exchange sounds reasonable to you…. please explain to him. And may I ask Why are you outside of this discussion? if you found the response from the rest not upto the mark -please go ahead and do the needful… we would also be enlightened by it surely….. And finally this place is a learning place, no dogmatic anything -avowal or disavowal.
The movie director was there in person, if you want an equal footing to be given to your observations, back it with data, through images, paper references or if it data that is yet to be published, indicate the institute/unversities from where these studies are conducted. In case these are independent studies, I am sorry we will treat it with due ‘ignorance’ .
Kindly do not presume we are here to disabuse any disquiet that you and others might be experiencing. This disquiet is very much an aimed for goal of this group of people.
Thank you